Defining Hospitality

DH - Yann de Rochefort
===

Yann de Rochefort: [00:00:00] the consistency provides a baseline, just like habits, right? You have habits so that you can improvise. Now that sounds contradictory to be extremely habitual and disciplined so that you can improvise, but it's precisely the consistency, that bedrock of consistency and, and habits that allows you the freedom to improvise effectively.

Intro: What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan, and this is Defining Hospitality.

Sponsor: This podcast is sponsored by Berman Fall Hospitality Group, a design-driven furniture manufacturer who specializes in custom case goods and seating for hotel guest rooms.

Dan Ryan: Today's guest is a visionary founder and [00:01:00] recognized restaurateur who successfully brought Spanish inspired Dining to America.

He's a 2019 nominee for James Beard Foundation's Award for outstanding restaurant design. He redefined the genre of tapas in New York, dc, Chicago, Boston, Atlanta, and now Nashville. He's the co-author of Boqueria, a cookbook from Barcelona to New York. He's the owner of Cutting Edge Management and founder of Boqueria Restaurants.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome Yann de Rochefort. Welcome Yann.

Yann de Rochefort: Thank you. Nice to be here.

Dan Ryan: Um, so I just wanna let all the listeners know Yann and I have known each other for Muto years, um, or

Yann de Rochefort: Double, double digit.

Dan Ryan: double digit Mui Mocho. Very many. Um, we were in a business group together. Um, I've seen him grow and build some amazing teams and expand into all these other markets and get into hotels, like put his boqueria [00:02:00] into a hotel in, uh, outside of central, um, times Square.

What hotel is that? Ac was it ac

Yann de Rochefort: the a CA hotel

Dan Ryan: and I think that's the first AC hotel

in New York City. And it might have been.

Yann de Rochefort: ac, first AC in New York. I don't know if it was the first in the United States. It was one of the

Dan Ryan: It's one of the first, it's one of the first in the us.

Yann de Rochefort: from, uh, New York Times building.

Dan Ryan: Yes. Um, isn't there a sch snippers place near there too? Schnipper something around there? Oh, Schnipper. What a weird name. But it's a really cool area, very busy. I actually had a holiday party there, uh, for my team before COVID, and it was awesome. And so I'm speaking from a lot of experience.

So Yann and I, like I said, we've known each other for a very long time. We lived in the same neighborhood. Um, what's interesting, for some reason, as a restaurateur, you're probably having more hospitality like transactions per day, per month, per week than [00:03:00] most other purveyors of hospitality or innkeepers or hoteliers.

And having known you for so long, I never thought of having you on until I was sitting in a Boqueria restaurant in DC with Dave Trots, who is an architect for many of your projects. And he's like, dude, we started talking about it. He is like. Why don't you have yawn on? And then I was like, oh my God, I'm such an idiot.

Yann de Rochefort: the obvious is just staring you in the face.

Dan Ryan: I would say for me, and maybe I don't, maybe I don't wanna speak for everyone, but for me that's often the case More than, more than it's not. So, and sometimes my kids call me captain, obvious, but I oftentimes miss the obvious because it's like right in front of me. I don't know if I have like late onset autism because my mom took Tylenol when I was a kid or something.

Yann de Rochefort: a little bit of a DHD,

Dan Ryan: exactly.

Yann de Rochefort: can't focus on what's in front of

Dan Ryan: I know. Well, thank you for the gentle reminder, Yann.

Yann de Rochefort: You're welcome.

Dan Ryan: you. Thank you. That's very kind of you. [00:04:00] Uh, so I have a lot of questions for you about as far as how you've expanded, how you've plugged into hospitality venues or a venue like at the ac, how. That might fit into your plan in the future, but before we get into all that good stuff and, and the, the experiences that you've created, what does hospitality mean to you?

Like what, what drew you into this world to begin with?

Yann de Rochefort: I think the, the two words that summarize hospitality to me is, is human connection. And what I mean by that is that hospitality is the opposite, but what distinguishes hospitality from a transaction right, is the human connection. It's, and it's a, it's a dance, right? It's still, it takes two to tango. Um, hospitality is not taking something out of a box and delivering it to someone without having seen them. Heard them thought about what their needs [00:05:00] are and customize what you're doing to their needs. So whether it's the product, whether it is the interaction, whether it is, you know, sort of like the, the energy that you bring to it, right? It's hospitality. It starts with being attuned to the other person.

Dan Ryan: So, okay, I'm gonna go out on a limb here because I've been to many of your locations. I think two in New York, one in Chicago, one in dc. I haven't been to the one in one in dc. That's where Dave and I and Ethan Banani a also a former podcast guest. It was like really cool. It was like a last minute, Hey, I'm driving to the Hyatt across the street.

You guys want to have dinner? And it was so weird, like we'll be there in 20 minutes and it's just one of those magical things. That was my first time eating in your DC location. So that was probably the fourth place. Here's the limb. Many, many years ago, I was shocked to read an article in Bon Appetit magazine where they said, Houston's or [00:06:00] Hillstone's, or both, I forget how they put it.

'cause I think they're, it's the same,

Yann de Rochefort: It's the

Dan Ryan: it's the best restaurant in America. And I'm like, what are they talking about?

Yann de Rochefort: Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: is Bon Appetit. Like what are they doing? That's like saying PBR is the best beer or something like that. Right? But I don't want to denigrate anything with you since, 'cause I've been there and I love it.

It's really good. But I was very surprised because I thought they would take a, a more highbrow approach. Like if you think about that matrix from New York Magazine. Um, but what they said about it is that no matter what Houstons you're in, you have the same kind of experience and they pride themselves on their management training program.

And for anyone looking to get into hospitality too, apparently that's a good track to learn so many things about how to, how to deliver.

Yann de Rochefort: They, I mean, they are extremely rigorous.

Dan Ryan: They, they are, but,

Yann de Rochefort: Yes.

Dan Ryan: and I assume you are too. Maybe not to the scale that they are. I don't know. But you, you, here's my point. Uh, [00:07:00] having been to many, many of your locations, I got the same experience and feel and level and quality of food and, and attention at all of them equally. And I've, every time I go, I have an incredible experience.

And that's not by a, just in the same way that we were talking about Houstons. I don't wanna talk about Houstons, I wanna talk about you. That's not magic, right? That's a lot of effort and a lot of playbooks and a lot of, and training and caring and like How do you do that?

Yann de Rochefort: So, um, I wanna, I wanna build on that, right? Because there's a, an apparent contradiction between what I said, which was hospitality is customized, it's individualized, it's taking care of someone where they are in that moment, right? And your point about consistency,

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

Yann de Rochefort: And those two might seem like they're in opposition, but they're actually not.

And here's how they're not, the consistency is a consistency [00:08:00] of product, And I think that anybody who comes to Boqueria and gets the gamba, so the TRO Moto no, or any of the other innumerable sort of Spanish classic topics that we serve the right to expect the same quality of product and a

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: Quality of product, right? So there consistency absolutely matters, but what. different is that they may be coming in for a date or they may be coming in for a business dinner. They may be coming in in a rush because they have a show to catch. And so the way that we deliver the experience, the way that we engage with them has to be different because it has to match that moment. so the, the consistency provides a baseline, just like habits, right? You have habits so that you can improvise. Now that sounds contradictory to be extremely habitual and disciplined so that you can improvise, but it's precisely the consistency, that [00:09:00] bedrock of consistency and, and habits that allows you the freedom to improvise effectively.

Dan Ryan: that resonates with me so incredibly well because I find I'm, I'm a, I'm a lifelong practitioner of GTD getting things done, which is like a personal workflow process where I capture everything. I act on it, I clarify it. There's times when I fall off the the GTD horse and it's very easy to get back on.

But what I found through this structure and regimen is it allows me to be my most creative when I have that structure. And it does sound counterintuitive. How do you. Recruit the people and train the people to exist within this framework, but also how do you let them know that it's okay to be you?

Yann de Rochefort: Yeah, that's a great question. Uh, so we have, look, we, we've been at this for 20 years now and we've been at this through some very, very stormy seas, and [00:10:00] we have. I think always been focused on trying to create the consistency through habits and, uh, and systems allows people to then be themselves, and again, it sounds contradictory, but there is a process of acculturation to boqueria when you come in where you learn. One of the, one of the best compliments that a server paid me once was that, um, you know, we have pretty, very structured training programs and, and we have a lot of structure internally, but the server who had worked, I think in sales at Macy's and had been a book Rea guest for years before coming to to work with us, said, you know, I always loved Boqueria, but I didn't realize how corporate you were. And I was taken aback. And I was like, oh, what do you mean that didn't sound good? She goes, no, no, no, it's good because I never realized how much structure was below the surface. Until I [00:11:00] came in, I would never have imagined that you had these training programs that you had, you know, an online database of all your recipes that you had.

You know that as a server, I would have to go through two weeks of training and get tested every day, and the guest is not supposed to see that. it's having that structure that allows the guest to then have the experience that she had, which was like, this is just a cool neighborhood restaurant and it's really consistent.

Dan Ryan: that's really surprising. I'm trying to think of my experiences being there where having, I guess it's hard for me to, I'm trying to separate myself from knowing you and seeing like how hard you've worked at like building the mouse trap or the, the, and, and get that to be corporate. Because without corporate with, I don't, I don't even, like, the corporate word is,

hate the, I hate the word corporate.

No,

Yann de Rochefort: word corporate. I

Dan Ryan: I'm gonna,

Yann de Rochefort: used. But

Dan Ryan: yeah.

Yann de Rochefort: what she said, I was like,

Dan Ryan: I'm gonna s I'm gonna go with structured.

Yann de Rochefort: yeah, let's [00:12:00] go

Dan Ryan: Okay.

Yann de Rochefort: And I

Dan Ryan: But even with structure, when I walk in, I get that same experience, right? It's, uh, the, you, you mentioned the food, you mentioned the service.

But then I also, even though you're in all these different locations and they're very different cities and locations within the cities, I st

Yann de Rochefort: is different.

Dan Ryan: Design is different, but there's a warmth. that is consistent throughout all of them. And even though the design is different, I don't know if it's the, it's probably the lighting, maybe a palette, but I, I haven't been to all of 'em, but the, there's a feeling of warmth I get into, and it's, it's also, you, you kind of walk into them and there's almost like a, you kind of gotta find your way to where you want to go, right?

There's like, almost like a labyrinth. Feel in the ones that I've been to anyway.

Yann de Rochefort: Yeah.

Dan Ryan: You, I feel warm when I go in there. How do you bring that level of, from the built environment to, I don't know, be the ribbon that ties it all together?

Yann de Rochefort: So I think that there's a, there's a [00:13:00] DNA,

Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: right? There's a common DNA. So the restaurants are not identical twins. To me, once you start having perfectly identical restaurant, it's a big signal that the founder has left a building. I say that, I say that as a founder, but I say that because it's a signal that like the individual Has left and you're, and, and the, the people perpetuating it or just replicating the thing without fundamentally understanding the why of the design. And I've worked with several different designers. We just worked with, uh, Alexa Ne Fei from Aian Design on our Atlanta location. She did an amazing job. And, but I'm always highly involved in the design and I collaborate with architects who have been privileged to work with amazing architects over the years.

You mentioned David Drax. I've, we worked with my Davis on the, the first two or three restaurants. Uh, [00:14:00] I've worked with several amazing, uh, architects and designers, but I'm always very involved and I try to convey the framework, the essential, the essential elements that make a book, read a book real, then let them interpret it. In a way that brings some individuality to each one of them.

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: you know, my, my design reference, I think the, to me, the, the paragon of design in that sense of having a common DNA, but then individual locations that, that feel different in, that are worth visiting in their own right is asop. Those stores are absolutely amazing,

Dan Ryan: Yes.

Yann de Rochefort: Right?

And so you walk in, they could have completely different materials, you know, you have the common element of the packaging, but they could have completely different materials, different architecture, different look and feel. And yet, you know, even if they took the product off the shelf, you would know what you're,

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: That, that's sort of my North Star i'd, I'd, I'd like to do that for hospitality, for

Dan Ryan: But, but I would [00:15:00] also say that the, the warmth, I don't know, it's very rare. I feel a warmth when I walk into a retail, but I would, I haven't been in an asop in a long time, but I feel like in there, the warmth maybe is from the scent. Right. It's a different, it's a different, I feel like there's this like, uh, when I, every, every boqueria, it's like I feel like I'm in a, know, like not a hot blanket.

Yes. Yes.

Yann de Rochefort: so I think there are several elements that make that happen and that they're part of our design guidelines. They are one, um, the high seating, right, the fact that most of the seating is high the level of energy. It ups a level of energy because it blends the dining room and the bar into one contiguous space, as opposed to having a bar as a waiting area into the dining room.

The

Dan Ryan: Yes,

Yann de Rochefort: is one factor.

Dan Ryan: totally.

Yann de Rochefort: you have banquettes that are facing inward. So the

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: Is, the space is encircled with banquettes facing inward. You have communal tables that often anchor the commun tables are [00:16:00] the keystone of our dining rooms then lighting. Warm lighting at, at different angles. Music and the materials. One of our guidelines is that we should not use any material that was not available in, I think, 1945. 1945? Because that was sort of like the, the industrial age. We would not use Corian. We don't use plastic. We use metal and wood and tile and, and marble. So we, we use materials that instinctively feel comfortable because they've been around for so long and they've been used in so much classic and, and, and historical architecture. So are all elements that help to generate the warmth that you're talking about. And that's very intentional.

Dan Ryan: Okay. I I, the big unlock for me there, the lighting is definitely key, but I didn't realize the high seating. Like that's super unusual to have that go throughout a restaurant [00:17:00] everywhere.

Yann de Rochefort: It is

Dan Ryan: That's,

Yann de Rochefort: and it, it,

Dan Ryan: yeah.

Yann de Rochefort: it does several things. So it, it brings the dining room in the bar into one particular space. I think it increases the level of energy for some reason. There's just a naturally higher level of energy when everybody's sort of at counter height. It also changes the, the, the physical dynamic of the interaction with the server.

Dan Ryan: Yeah. 'cause they're shorter.

Yann de Rochefort: you're literally eye to eye.

Dan Ryan: Yeah, totally. You're, you're not looking up.

Yann de Rochefort: You're

Dan Ryan: Ah.

Yann de Rochefort: up, they're not looking down. It's not this awkward thing where you're different heights. You're literally eye to eye.

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

Yann de Rochefort: talking about human connection. one of the ways in which the, the physical, the, the physical space, the design intentionally fosters human connection by putting you eye to eye.

Dan Ryan: Um, I'm trying to go through, I've eat, obviously we've all eaten in thousands of restaurants over our lives, but I cannot think, I'm like going through this photo Rolodex of my brain. I can't think of another restaurant that [00:18:00] has all high seating. Is that possible? Or where did you get your inspi inspiration from?

Yann de Rochefort: rare. Well, I got the inspiration from when we were designing the first Boqueria,

Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: Meyer and Gray Davis and I,

Dan Ryan: And I also didn't realize that Will and Gray designed your first one, and that's a big surprise 'cause I love them and they're great.

Yann de Rochefort: Yeah.

Dan Ryan: Hi Gray.

Yann de Rochefort: Yeah, I, oh, uh, I, I managed to get them to design this tiny little tapas bar on a side street in Manhattan when they were just starting out. Really. I think they'd probably been in business for a couple years these days.

I, I don't think that my, the totality of my construction budget then would probably not rise to the level of their fees today. Uh, but I was lucky enough to, to catch them on the bras, as it were. And we, not only that, but they actually agreed to go to Barcelona with me for 48 hours.

Dan Ryan: Oh wow.

Yann de Rochefort: spent 48 hours walking up and down the streets of Barcelona, poking our head into all these different tapas bars. And what we were after was distilling [00:19:00] the essence of those. Types of institutions to their essence. said, okay, how do we, how do we take the things that are essential to tapas bars, the things that tell you intuitively you're in a tapas bar, and then tho maintain those elements. But then we created in a way that would be unique. And so where we landed was high seating because in tap of bar, generally you're eating standing up, right? You're tall tables or you're eating, standing up at the bar, you're interacting a lot with the bartender. Um, so it's high seatings, it's the menus, it's the visibility of product on, on shelves. Uh, it's delighting, it's the visibility of foods.

So when you walk into a Boqueria, generally you have a tapas station in Spain, they'll have a lot of, often have food that's already prepared and, and waiting for you to, to order. In the US you can't do that because health department says. Don't do that ever. Uh, but also because the guest doesn't want it, right?

The guest wants to order off a menu and have it made for them. And so we took all of those elements and we said, okay, [00:20:00] those are the elements that if we can recreate them in a way that is unique, we'll respect tradition and tell people intuitively they're an atop bar, but we can recreate them in a way that will be uniquely Boqueria.

And that's what, that's what we did, I think, very successfully, certainly with the first one, and, and we've carried that through since.

Dan Ryan: And I, I'm still, as you're saying this, I'm even visualizing time in Barcelona and I, okay. I get the bar hide stuff, but there's still low chairs and tables off to the side. Done kind of chaotically, but I, I,

Yann de Rochefort: but they're not distinctive. So

Dan Ryan: yeah.

Yann de Rochefort: There, but they're not distinctive.

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

Yann de Rochefort: And so the things we tried to think of the look at the things that were distinctive, that marked a difference between Tops Bar and something else. And so yes, you also have, you know, you, you have lots of other things that might be there, but they're not what tell you, you're a tops bar.

Dan Ryan: Okay, so now I want to go into your idea, uh, and, and going back into the structure part of things. So. You're [00:21:00] very goal oriented. I knew you when you were really starting to scale and try out a di a couple different restaurant concepts, right? I think you went somewhere, you tried one thing out and then you're like, whoa, let's just stick with tapas, even though you love all food.

But then it was also building a leadership team and having a plan and how do you grow and then freaking COVID happens, right? And then you're like, shit, I have a restaurant. It's COVID and you got punched in the face. But you're, even before that, you try, you plugged into one of the first AC hotels in the country, the first prob, I think the first in New York.

Um, how has that idea of structure plan and goal driven you to kind of get to where you are? And, and I also like investing in that stuff is really hard, especially when you get punched in the face. So like, walk us through how.

Yann de Rochefort: Yeah.

Dan Ryan: What your growth plans were and then how you [00:22:00] adjust.

Yann de Rochefort: So, I mean, we were, I, I, you know, we started, you start with one, and then you build another. And generally, like most, um, you're, you're financing each one as you go and you're looking for friends and family, et cetera. And that's how we financed most of the early restaurants. And then 2017, we restructured the whole company and we got the vast majority of our investors on board behind the growth plan.

We said, look, we're, we're going to, we're not going to dividend out anymore. We're going to reinvest the, the cash that we generate into, into growth. And we, you know, we wanna turn this ultimately into a regional, if not a national brand. we started doing that and, yeah, 2019 I mean, 2020 happened. And as you say, I think you're, you're referencing my favorite quote from, uh, which is from Mike Tyson, which is that everybody has a plan until you get punched in their face.

Dan Ryan: Yeah, especially by Mike Tyson and COVID, could have been the equivalent of Mike Tyson.

Yann de Rochefort: I think, yeah, he was, it, it definitely was. It definitely was it hurt [00:23:00] And um, and all of a sudden you need to, to reassess. And I think that in the early days I was very focused on building up my team and, and, and having the right people around me. And I think that the people absolutely matter.

But what I've realized over time is that the people will change, right? There are very few companies that can scale and have the same people in the same positions all grow into their job at a company that becomes two x four x, five x, 10 x the size, right? Very often some people will follow, some people will not. And so, although people are obviously absolutely critical, I think that the, the history of the past, you know, five to 10 years has really reinforced my belief in culture. I wouldn't say culture over people, but culture for people. And what I mean by that is that the people may change, when [00:24:00] you bring new people in, I think what what help?

Nothing guaranteed. I was gonna say, guaranteed. Nothing guarantees anything. There are definitely no guarantees. But I think what helps to maintain your trajectory and also allow you to pivot having a really strong culture. And culture is a word that is thrown around a lot. And so I'll define what I mean by when.

When I say cultural, I'll define what I mean by it or what I think about when I say that. I think that three of the, the things that I believe define culture are beliefs, rituals, and values, right? Beliefs, rituals and values are markers and carriers of culture. so if you have a culture that is intentional. it's, it's underpinned by certain values, right? Right. So we have a number of values from taking it up a notch to owning it, um, doing the right thing, et cetera. [00:25:00] And then we define what those mean. So those are, those are values. This is how we, this is what we think matters, and this is what we hold ourselves accountable for in terms of our behavior. You then have beliefs and you have rituals. And rituals are really, really important because they help to carry the belief and to carry the behaviors that you want. And so when somebody new comes in, if you have to replace somebody or somebody new comes in, like that server that I referenced earlier, they start to look around and they go, okay, way that things are done here. Right. And that builds a level of resilience that I think is unlike anything else because. You can have people come in and out. This is a high turnover industry and is a high turnover industry. Structurally, there's only so much that you can do about it. You can have higher or lower turnover, but you're always going to have turnover in, in the restaurant industry.

And, and it's higher than, than in most. But if you have a really strong [00:26:00] culture where the values are explicit and people actually buy into them, right? So core values that are poster on the wall but that nobody buys into are incredibly corrosive, but core values that are on a card like the Ritz Carlton or, or Boqueria, not that I'm putting us on the same level as Ritz Carlton.

I can only hope to do that. Um, but core values where people look at them and go, yeah, that, that's true. They actually walk the walk, right?

Dan Ryan: I, I, I would put you and actually any company at the same level as Ritz Carlton for the idea of having that card or. Or the poster, but having a card or a poster is not what does it, it's really, it's how do you take those values, which are so hard to figure out, and, and it often takes a lot of different iterations, but when you get them right

Yann de Rochefort: Yeah,

Dan Ryan: then you talk about them and they become part of your lexicon or the ritual, or actually it's more of really a belief 'cause people believe in it.

[00:27:00] If that's, if you're giving feedback and

Yann de Rochefort: all of those things.

Dan Ryan: Yeah. And,

Yann de Rochefort: it's part of the lexicon and we named ours. Ours. We, we used those words deliberately. I wanted the headline of the core value to be something that would, will off the tongue, that wouldn't

Dan Ryan: hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: Stilted. So people talk about taking up an notch I on ironically, when they say, okay, I'm doing something better.

I'm, I'm training to get better at what I'm doing. Or we're taking it up a notch by like, we're about to change our croquetas, for instance, we've been at this for 20 years now. We're about to celebrate our 20 year anniversary. We've been selling croquetas since day one. We're still taking it up a notch. I was still like, you know what, I'm not, I don't love these.

I wanna love these. I feel like we can make them even better. And we, and we do. So when those things are true and they're lived, and leadership actually embodies them, and people look at leadership and go, okay, they, they're not full of it. They're actually living those values. That instills, I think, a, a, a passion adherence to, to, to the company.[00:28:00]

And then you want it reinforce with rituals. Rituals are incredibly important and you have rituals, whether you like it or not. You, you just, and you have values, whether you like it or not. You just wanna be intentional about them if you wanna win

Dan Ryan: So I'm gonna go back to me missing the obvious that's right in front of me and we both, I think we're coming up with our values and refining them separately

Yann de Rochefort: Yeah.

Dan Ryan: the same time. I think we maybe even had the same coach. Is that possible,

Yann de Rochefort: uh, Phyllis.

Dan Ryan: Phyllis, or was it.

Yann de Rochefort: Well, we had,

Dan Ryan: Mark, mark,

Yann de Rochefort: Mark

Dan Ryan: Green

Yann de Rochefort: Yes.

Dan Ryan: and Phyllis also helped tie it all together.

I actually was just thinking about Phyllis yesterday. I drove through Chappaqua. This is really weird. Okay, so the world started to talk.

Yann de Rochefort: we had Phyllis, um, led a, a full day seminar where we came up with the core values and then we, you know, we refined them in wordsmith, had over time. But yeah, we, we came up with, um, with this [00:29:00] often awesome exercise called, you know, book your own Mars. And the exercise was okay. The idea, the premise was you want your values to be found, to be founded in something that's already true. You wanna amplify something that's true. You, you can't just pluck something out of thin air and say, okay, we want to be, we wanna be all about excellence when we're, when we're not or whatever.

So the exercise was book on Mars, and it was the, the, the thought was, you're about to launch people to Mars to put a book here, there. Who do you send and why them?

Dan Ryan: Yes.

Yann de Rochefort: And it was this awesome

Dan Ryan: I totally forgot that exercise.

Yann de Rochefort: And we're like, okay, this person, this person, this person, and they were

Dan Ryan: And

Yann de Rochefort: and there was some dishwashers and there were servers, et

Dan Ryan: then the most important thing is why?

Yann de Rochefort: Who, and then why,

Dan Ryan: Yes. And that's where the magic happens. Mm-hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: Do those people demonstrate that make you want to pick them? [00:30:00] And that got at some pretty important truths, right? It got at at like, okay, those are the behaviors that we actually value and why do we value them? And then we started mining that.

That was an awesome exercise. I still

Dan Ryan: Oh my God, I'm gonna do this. I need to do this again. But, uh, going back to the captain obvious or missing captain obvious for me, um, if I go back to how it just feels, and I say this about businesses, I can walk into a business and it just feels different. And I often say it feels different because they're living their values.

Their values are clearly, they fine, they're living, they're breathing, they're talking them restaurants. It's really hit or miss. But I think aside, uh, outside of the lighting, the food, the experience, the serving, the, the, the interaction, it's the value. Like that's what it is. It's the values that tie them all together a hundred percent.

All those other things do, but though all those other things come from those values. And we were on a journey figuring that shit out together way back in the day. Oh [00:31:00] my god, this is crazy. huh.

Yann de Rochefort: Some of that hard work actually paid off.

Dan Ryan: And then you forget about it, right? Because you just go on these other paths.

Wow. Well, thank you for helping me have that light bulb moment.

Yann de Rochefort: You're welcome.

Dan Ryan: Self discovery never ends. Um, okay, so I think it was 2018 and actually just yesterday I was dropping off a bottle of wine at a colleague of mine, um, at Berman Falk. She used to work with me at Beachwood and her husband was home when I was dropping it off.

And then we were, we were all hanging out around the counter. And he, I, he's like, I think the last time I saw you was at your holiday party, and it must have been 2018, I think it was 2018. It could have been 2019. So at Boqueria. So actually, it's so weird. We're talking about Phyllis, this whole thing. I'm talking to you.

We. Like this is, the universe sometimes screams things, and I don't know what it's saying right now, but that experience for you opening up in your first [00:32:00] hotel,

Yann de Rochefort: Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: was a new hotel.

Yann de Rochefort: Yes.

Dan Ryan: So you, you can't really say, there's not like a before and after or AB test about how the boqueria was accretive to the hotel.

It's always just been existing that way. Um, but as you were saying earlier, when you're describing Boqueria or walking through Barcelona with Will and Gray and trying to see how communal, um, and the feeling of tappas and trying to find those like universal truths of tappas. But I, I like how, I think you said it's like a super engaging communal and casual environment.

I'm probably putting words into your mouth, but it would seem to me an U that upped energy from the high seating, et cetera, et cetera, and all the things. So many hotels struggle with activating their lobby.

Yann de Rochefort: Yeah,

Dan Ryan: Now, not every hotel wants a Spanish tapas experience, but how do you envision, like if I were a developer in a [00:33:00] market that was interesting or that might appreciate tappas or that experience, like how could you plug into that and how, in your vision or from data that you might have, like how is that accretive to that model of, of the hotel by plugging you into the, into the, uh, into the lobby?

Yann de Rochefort: I mean, I think that Tappas works really well in, in hotels in part because the, the experience is so versatile. Alright, so we're open from the very beginning. We've been open all day. We, we don't, we don't close when we, we open at, you know, 11 or 1130 and in the morning generally, and we close sometime between 10:00 PM and, and midnight.

Dan Ryan: Okay. Wait, let me,

Yann de Rochefort: all day

Sponsor: Hey, everybody. We've been doing this podcast for over three years now, and one of the themes that consistently comes up is sustainability, and I'm just really proud to announce that our sponsor, Berman Fall Hospitality [00:34:00] Group is the first within our hospitality industry to switch to sustainable and recyclable packaging, eliminating the use of styrofoam.

Please check out their impact page in the show notes for more info.

Dan Ryan: let me, I wanna ask a question there, because I'm not a restaurateur. I know a lot of people who have restaurants, but one of the challenges is always how do you switch from

Yann de Rochefort: change.

Dan Ryan: Yeah. From lunch to, to dinner and lighting and all. So how does, how does Tappas work for that challenge?

Yann de Rochefort: most of our menu is the same all day long.

Dan Ryan: Uh, ah

Yann de Rochefort: Most of our menu is the same all day long, and yet there's about a half hour. We figured it out over time, but there's about a half hour period during which the menu is a little bit more limited,

Dan Ryan: hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: still don't close, right? So the bar is open and we still have, we even during that half hour, generally between 5, 5 30, 5 30 to six, depending on the market, uh, where the, the menu might be a little bit more limited, but we figured it out over time.

And we want somebody to be able to drop in any time. And whether they [00:35:00] want, you know, a couple bites and a beer or whether they want a full meal, uh, they can have that anytime of day between, you know, when we open and when we close. And so the fact that it can be open all day, that we are busy all day.

Sometimes I walk in at three o'clock in the afternoon, I'm like, oh, where, where did everybody come from?

Dan Ryan: Hmm

Yann de Rochefort: Why are we full? It's three o'clock in the afternoon. You know, because, um, because it is that versatile. And I think that is very accretive to, to a hotel environment. Where people are not necessarily on a set schedule.

They, they might be checking in, checking out at different times. And, um, that I think works very well for hotel environment.

Dan Ryan: Hmm. And then are you talking to many hotel folks about plugging this in, or do you get resistance? Okay, so like if you're talking to them,

if I had, if I owned a hotel and I was trying to reinvigorate the lobby, um, and, and I was like, oh, [00:36:00] tapas could be cool in this market. Like what's, what's a, like, how do you walk them through to see if it's a good, a good decision or a bad decision?

I'm sure you probably walk away from more sites than, than you wanna work in.

Yann de Rochefort: I mean, there's, you know, there's, there's a fit. So we have a clientele that's pretty varied, right? If you walk into a boudia, you'll have people in their early twenties and people in their, you know, late sixties or, or more depending on the market, depending on the time.

So we have pretty varied clientele, but there is, there's a certain price point or certain socioeconomic, um, targets. So, you know, that's, that would be the first thing is, is the, is the price point sort of compatible? Is the energy compatible? Is it value compatible? Is it, you know, we would not, I would not put a, a Bore or Ritz Carlton, for instance. I also would not put in the Hampton Inn. Right? So there's a, there's a certain strike zone. Could it go into Moxie, possibly a CA hotel? Definitely. Um, you know, WI think depend w could do it. [00:37:00] I'm actually working on the idea of a book Rear Beach Club,

Dan Ryan: Oh.

Yann de Rochefort: would be great in, in, um, you know, w or or other beach hotels. Um, so. there, does the, does the psychographic fit with the hotel? Does the demographic fit with the hotel? Does the price point fit with the hotel? Does the vibe fits? All of those things would be, would be important because yeah, we're not going to, it's not a, going to put it just anywhere. I think it has to be accretive to the hotel and it has to be accretive to the brand.

Dan Ryan: And then again, this is me just being a complete dummy on this, but If I own a hotel and I have a lobby or public space and, and a boqueria could fit there. obviously everything has constraints and budgets, but you really invest in the space.

Is that

Yann de Rochefort: Yep.

Dan Ryan: If I own that hotel, I'm like, okay, Yann, like, lease this from us, or is it like a JV

Yann de Rochefort: We've d

Dan Ryan: it like a shared, how does it work? Like, yeah.

Yann de Rochefort: considered both. We can lease a space, uh, we can do a management deal, [00:38:00] uh, at DCA hotel, we also managed a rooftop bar. It's a totally separate brand. It's not a book rear brand, and

Dan Ryan: Oh.

Yann de Rochefort: we managed it for them. So we, we can also, you know, we can, we can run f and b in a hotel property where we might have a boqueria, but also run a separate f and b outlet for, for the, the property owner. both of those things are true. I think that for Boqueria, what would be important to me is generally to have a separate entrance and to actually be separate from the lobby. So there's an entrance to Boqueria Aeso hotel from the lobby. Generally speaking though, I think that we have, we have a, you were talking earlier about our design and our field, et cetera, and I think that. There, there was one location we did, which did not work out, and I think it was because we compromised, because it was part of a shared space. And so I would want the Bo

Dan Ryan: Uh

Yann de Rochefort: to have an entrance from the lobby, but primarily to have the, to be its own space and to have an entrance from, from [00:39:00] the, the street.

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: Because, because if we compromise it is a 360 experience. It, it, it is experiential dining. Um, there are a lot of elements that are very intentional about boqueria and I think when we compromise those, uh, we, we run a risk.

Dan Ryan: Did you walk? I, I didn't know about you managing the rooftop bar at the AC at Times Square. Did you walk into that deal knowing that would happen? Or did that happen after you'd opened?

Yann de Rochefort: was part of the deal from day one.

Dan Ryan: Oh, no kidding.

Yann de Rochefort: Yeah.

Dan Ryan: Huh? But there could be another hotel owner somewhere that maybe has space that's not optimized and they wanna do a restaurant.

And you were like, okay, yeah, I come in and I'll do that other thing for you.

Yann de Rochefort: Yeah.

Dan Ryan: So there's no like set playbook on how to do it. It's like each deal is different.

Yann de Rochefort: there really isn't.

Dan Ryan: Huh? Um, refresh my memory, I think you tried some other, um, food experience. It may have been Spanish or not, I don't remember.

But then you're like, you tried it and you're like, you know what? I gotta stick to

Yann de Rochefort: Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: BIA and tapas. Like, how did you know? I understand every [00:40:00] entrepreneur's desire to chase a shiny object or to try new things, but. How did that experience change your thinking on just staying focused or reinforce your gut instinct to stay focused?

Yann de Rochefort: Well, I mean that there was one project in particular, which was called Manzania, which was

Dan Ryan: Oh, so it's Spanish,

Yann de Rochefort: It was Spanish

Dan Ryan: okay.

Yann de Rochefort: on 27th Street. It was a different project, and honestly, that was one of those projects in which everything that could go wrong go wrong in spades, um, from, you know, a, uh, hitting, uh, I can't remember.

I think we hit a power line when we're drilling through the, when we were drilling through the slab to open up a staircase, we, we drilled through a power line that was not marked on the plan.

Dan Ryan: Oh,

Yann de Rochefort: fun, uh, and expensive. Uh, there was a h there was a hurricane, which interrupted construction for a while and then pushed ConEd back by several months

Dan Ryan: [00:41:00] Oof.

Yann de Rochefort: So overwhelmed dealing with more pressing things than the new gas connection to a restaurant in Manhattan. So, um, I think that, that there were a lot of very idiosyncratic aspects of that specific project that, um, that contributed

Dan Ryan: Hmm. to,

Yann de Rochefort: Luck has a lot to do with business. Luck does have a lot to do with business, as you know.

Dan Ryan: yeah, but that also just, it helped you focus and then like really lean into boqueria and, and you're able to impact and delight so many more people because you're not distracted. Um, for the Boqueria's that exists in all the cities I mentioned before, you're leasing, uh, it's like a ground, is it a ground lease

okay.

Yann de Rochefort: a, it's a, yeah, it's a lease. We generally have, you know, 10, 15, 20 year deals on,

Dan Ryan: and, and is it just a, um. You have a real estate broker and they go around and look at it, are you getting to know the landlords? Like how do you select like what the final thing is?

Yann de Rochefort: All of the [00:42:00] above. Um, and I, we don't always get it right. I mean, I think sometimes, you know, there have been one or two locations where, um, where we didn't get it right in retrospect, and there have been one or two locations where, you know, we, we got lucky and it was even better than we thought it would be.

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: But we, we, we look at a range of things. We look at, you know, first of all is the, the. bones of the building, right? For us, uh, is there, is our crowd already in the area, dining in the area? Do we have, are there other restaurant concepts that similar price point, doing strong volumes,

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: You can do all the graphic research you want, but at the end of the day, if you see that there are other concepts that are doing strong, strong volumes in a similar price point, that is a very strong indication of the potential of the market.

You look at, you do look at competition and, and, and how much competition there, there is, and whether you bring something that is new and, and ideally desired

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: to that submarket.

Dan Ryan: Uh, [00:43:00] you, I love the word psychographic because that's like EO speak, right? Of, uh, gazelle's or, uh, rock habits and all that good stuff. Uh, but when you think about the psychographic, uh, I guess the reason why I asked the last question on the landlord type and mix and how you find the places, I would assume that for a, a location for a restaurant, okay, yes, you can take in all those intangibles of what the landlord might be like, but it is, I, I would think it's, it leans more towards transactional.

This is available, it makes sense, do it or not. You might not get into the landlord relationship on the hotel side.

Yann de Rochefort: Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: think the owner would be way more. Involved in it. So like if you were to paint a psychographic for the type of hotel owner or even brand, like if you went into every Hyatt, for instance, or I don't know, some sub-brand within Hyatt or Marriott, or like how do you identify the [00:44:00] psychographic of the owner of that hotel or developer of that hotel?

And then if you were to do something separately, like how do you align with a brand if you were to figure out something on that, on scale?

Yann de Rochefort: I think there's an analog to, to how we with people.

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: I think that shared interests, shared passion, shared taste, are, are a big part of it,

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: Right? Um, we tend to gravitate to people like you, you get to know people over what might seem to be superficial things like shared interests, more than fundamental values.

It's only once you get to know each other and you get to, to um, really understand the other person that you get to, you know, who, who they're as a person, values, et cetera. So I think the first step is, okay, do we have, do we have similar tastes, similar inclinations, similar um, ways of, of doing business? And, uh, I think that's really important. And then, yeah, you want there to be a [00:45:00] fundamental alignment. But one thing I would say that is not a cautionary tale, but think that. Mitigates the, the criticality of that relationship is those relationships can change buildings, change hands. Right? I've been in buildings that have changed hands multiple times um, so you might get into a relationship and sign, I would be leery of signing a space where the landlord consideration is too strong because that landlord relationship could change in a year and

Dan Ryan: Hmm,

Yann de Rochefort: be facing somebody entirely difference. I think that's, it's a good thing to keep in mind is that

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: change.

Dan Ryan: Um,

Yann de Rochefort: the thing that is never going to change is the location. You're

Dan Ryan: yeah,

Yann de Rochefort: a building and move it somewhere else.

Dan Ryan: okay, to take that one step further, one of my favorite books, I'm sure you loved it too, but is setting the table with Danny Meyer

Yann de Rochefort: Yeah.

Dan Ryan: when he was selecting Union Square Cafe or [00:46:00] Gramercy, I don't remember which one it was, he was being offered in like a marginal

Yann de Rochefort: Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: Or an up and coming neighborhood.

A, I think it was a 15 or a 20 year lease, and he. Was so terrified of doing that. But I think in the book he talked to his uncle and his uncle like, okay, Elise is a liability, but you really have to look at it as an asset. Like you're gonna have 15 or 20 years of runway to make this thing work. And that's a huge mind shift.

Um, did you go through a similar, my shift and when thinking about these super duper long-term leases?

Yann de Rochefort: Well, I think it depends on, it depends on the terms of the lease

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: And there's, there's a range of, level of commitment, and I think two of the things that define the level of commitment are, one, the, the investment that you're putting in. So it costs us several million dollars to open a new restaurant. That is [00:47:00] one facet of the commitments, but the other one is the lease.

And you have different personal guarantees, corporate guarantees, limited guarantees. And you know, in New York, there's something known as a good guy guarantee, which I haven't actually seen anywhere outside of New York. It's kind of, uh, it's kind of ironic that, uh, New York City would be the place where you have these quote unquote good guy guarantees.

And a good guy guarantee is a clause that allows you to get out of the lease by paying, uh, fixed indemnity of anywhere from like two, three to six months, or sometimes more, but rarely more of rent as long as you're current. So as, as long as I'm, as long as I'm current, I can say, this is not working out for me.

Here are the keys and here is, you know, the next three months worth of rent and I can walk away

Dan Ryan: And you walk it out and you have to like broom sweep the place, right? It's like,

Yann de Rochefort: sweep the

Dan Ryan: yeah.

Yann de Rochefort: like your, your investment sunk, right? Which is why I mentioned the investment, like the invention investment really matters. But if [00:48:00] you, if you look at that type of deal, which is probably the most tenant favorable sort of lease deal or lease guarantee you can have if you, if you have that sort of deal, the the lease is, is a fixed cost option.

Dan Ryan: Hmm,

Yann de Rochefort: I would rather have the option of staying 20 years. So if you have, if the cost of exiting is the same, I would want the lease deal to be as long as possible. I'd want it to be 50 years

Dan Ryan: huh.

Yann de Rochefort: Because I can always walk away

Dan Ryan: Totally.

Yann de Rochefort: walk away from, lease you. They're, they're fixed indemnities, you negotiate a way out of et cetera.

And so you're, you always have an option to walk away from it and as long if that option cost is fixed or if that exit cost is fixed, you want the term to be as long as possible.

Dan Ryan: Hmm. It's interesting when I, I, I was. Uh, winding down my company in 2019 and pivoting and merging with another company. I had a lease on Broadway between 28th and 29th, and I think I had six months left on [00:49:00] it

Yann de Rochefort: Yeah.

Dan Ryan: like August to January. And there was a good guy Clause and I basically got all my stuff out there.

I said, I was like, I talked to the landlord. I was like, Hey, um, I got six months left, like, no one's coming to work. Can I, uh, execute the good Guy Clause or whatever it was? I, and he is like, no, we can just see you in court. And I was like, are you fucking kidding me? So I wound up just paying the last six months

Yann de Rochefort: Yeah.

Dan Ryan: I don't know, maybe I kept some things in there.

Um, but it was really annoying. The good Guy Clause didn't work for me.

Yann de Rochefort: Yeah. I'm not sure. I'm not sure why. Um,

Dan Ryan: I think he was just a dick.

Yann de Rochefort: that is entirely possible.

Dan Ryan: Yeah, I.

Yann de Rochefort: Entirely possible. Which actually reminds me of the, the, I think the, the best legal advice I ever got. actually not really legal advice. I was negotiating a lease with a huge landlord and they were being absolute assholes about it, and I was just, you know, working really hard to try to rest all these [00:50:00] negotiations out of them. But this, this was a huge landlord. I mean, they, they would outweigh me and their ability to pay legal fees. I, I can't remember who they had. I think they had Skadden Arps as

Dan Ryan: Oh

Yann de Rochefort: as their attorney. And so, you know, their legal fees, they were already into more legal fees and lease negotiations than my construction cost was going to be for the restaurant. But any case, we walked out of one of those meetings and my attorney turned to me and he said, you know, contracts don't enforce themselves.

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

Yann de Rochefort: he meant by that was it, at the end of the day, yeah, the words are gonna matter, but if you have to face these guys in courts,

Dan Ryan: Oh yeah,

Yann de Rochefort: of enforcing it and winning in court are going to be such

Dan Ryan: totally.

Yann de Rochefort: That it will be a paired victory.

Dan Ryan: Yeah. So I was like, okay.

Yann de Rochefort: contrasts don't enforce themselves is a phrase that has really stuck with me.

Dan Ryan: cause anyone can take anyone to court and make your life miserable. So

at that point,

Yann de Rochefort: Yeah. And if, if you're facing a huge landlord

Dan Ryan: yeah, that's, [00:51:00] that's where, that was my decision. I was like, okay. So I got like, I don't know what it was, 50 or 60 grand left. So I'm like, okay, I'll just pay it and

Yann de Rochefort: Yeah. I

Dan Ryan: I'll come in here and take naps if I need to.

Yann de Rochefort: mean, we all, we all know people who you know, are in the wrong and yet, uh, take people to court and because they have deep pockets and it's worth it to them.

Dan Ryan: Oh yeah. I read about some of these people in the news every day.

Yann de Rochefort: vaguely rings a

bell.

Dan Ryan: So you mentioned the Croquette does, um, what's a dish that's been at Boqueria since day one and really tells the story of who Boqueria and who you are.

Yann de Rochefort: I think there are two of them.

Dan Ryan: Okay. so it's good.

Yann de Rochefort: It's a bogo. Um, so I think there are two. One is the, the dates wrapped in bacon.

Dan Ryan: Oh yeah.

Yann de Rochefort: So there are three ingredients. You really cannot mess it up, right. It is a date stuffed with a marcona almond, some blue cheese wrapped in bacon [00:52:00] and fried.

Dan Ryan: Yep.

Yann de Rochefort: It is delicious. It has been on the menu since day one. And when we did, I remember we, we had our first friends and family dinner, um, and this is the first Boqueria first friends and family dinner.

And we're reading the feedback from all the people who came to the dinner. And chef is li. And I'm like, what's wrong? He goes, you know, I, I worked on all these dishes and I have this complicated dish and this other fish dish and this, and the people were raving about these dates wrapped in bacon. And it made him mad.

And I was like, are you kidding me? that's perfect.

Dan Ryan: Yes.

Yann de Rochefort: It is four ingredients. We know exactly what they are. We cannot mess it up. And people love it. it.

Dan Ryan: And when you're all backed up in the kitchen and people are starving and hungry, you can at least get those out really quick.

Yann de Rochefort: exactly. So I was like, that is a win.

Dan Ryan: okay.

Yann de Rochefort: it was like, no, but anybody can make that. I'm like, yeah, but they didn't. And we are.

Dan Ryan: Totally.[00:53:00]

Yann de Rochefort: So that's one. And then at kind of the other end of the spectrum is the, the gamba, gio, the, uh, shrimp. Um, which are cooked in olive oil and, uh, olive oil, garlic and gu peppers generally.

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: traditional dish is just that. And what we've done is we've sort of, I'm gonna use one of our core values here, really taking it up a notch because we add, um, lobster stock that is reduced and brandy and a little bit of lemon juice.

And it gives, it, it takes a very traditional dish

Dan Ryan: Ah,

Yann de Rochefort: and it really transform it and gives it a lot more complexity, lot more layers of flavor. Um, people want to like take the bread and dip, dip it in the, the olive oil with the garlic in pepper and the lobster stock and, and ask for more bread to have more of it. And it at the other end section because that one is complicated, right? But it takes a very traditional dish and yet turns it a little bit inside out, takes it [00:54:00] up a notch, makes it that much more interesting, that much more complex. So it's not exactly what you would have in Spain.

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: in my humble

Dan Ryan: It's

Yann de Rochefort: It's

Dan Ryan: Yes,

Yann de Rochefort: yes.

Dan Ryan: I didn't realize it was the reduced lobster. Hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: Yeah.

Dan Ryan: Um. Okay. So restaurants are not an easy business and, uh, in certain cities and jurisdictions, they're becoming harder and harder from just in incre, like inflation, labor costs, um, insurance, like you name everything. It's a tough business.

But, um, in spite of that, you endure right? Um, as you look to the future, despite all these headwinds, what's exciting you most,

Yann de Rochefort: I think, to keep impacting people,

Dan Ryan: hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: I, um, I get regenerated from spending time. Our people. I get regenerated from spending time with guests. I get regenerated from seeing the impact that we have on people from seeing, you know, somebody who might have started as a [00:55:00] dishwasher, grow into a sheep, the cuisine. seeing somebody, you might have started as a host or a server, grow into a manager and sort of, you know, I don't wanna oversell, but in a sense, kind of self-actualize, right? It become a stronger professional and grow and contribute to a culture that I think they've come to, to love. That's what, that's what really excites me.

We just, we just did, you know, two days of training in DC with all of our general managers and, and chefs and, you know, we, it was two days of really intense training, classroom training, talking about, you know, we were talking about structure earlier that was really about structure. Like how do we plan food production?

How do we forecast, how do we do all these things that are not, not sexy, it's not why people, those people got into the restaurant business, but it was the part of that structure that allows them to then be hospitable and to create great food. And they, you know, at, at the end of two days, they were milling [00:56:00] around talking about everything they just covered. And excited to implement it and excited because they said, okay, this is gonna make our lives easier. We're getting better at our job. And, um, and, and we're being challenged. And I think that the, the restaurant industry is, um, very, sometimes much maligned by the press, um, and characterized on television. I think that it is an incredible place for people to grow, for people to be trained, for people to develop careers that might not have the same shot elsewhere.

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: if you work in a restaurant, certainly the restaurant like Boqueria, I'm not going to make that claim of every restaurant. But I think certainly a restaurant like Boqueria and there are many others like us, and you are willing to work and grow and learn.

You can make career out of it and, and, and really enhance your life. And,

Dan Ryan: you,

Yann de Rochefort: I don't think that gets enough play.

Dan Ryan: yeah, and I think [00:57:00] like going back to that Houston's thing, like just like you with Boqueria, it's not just they're gonna learn, you're gonna teach, right? You're gonna nurture it's,

Yann de Rochefort: Yes.

Dan Ryan: That's also why I, I don't know as well with the hosp, with the restaurant industry, but on the hospitality side, to me it's one of the few career paths.

That the ascent and path to leadership can be so steep. You can start as a housekeeper. You can start as a bell person. You can, and then if you are into it and you're, and show up on time, you're engaged. You wanna learn like you're gonna be a general manager before you know it.

Yann de Rochefort: Absolutely. The opportunities, the opportunities are always there. I mean, always. Again, I don't know every environment, and I don't wanna make a blanket statement about every single restaurant in America,

Dan Ryan: No, they're not always there for everyone. Yeah.

Yann de Rochefort: I know it's, I know it's true for us.

I know I'm very passionate about that. And I also know that we are far from the only ones.

Dan Ryan: The other thing is, and I, I gotta figure out how to talk more [00:58:00] about this, but even just going from high school into hospitality, whether it's restaurants or hotels, you can be on a steep career path without being, um, overburdened with college debt and university debt. Right.

Yann de Rochefort: we've had 20 something general managers whose parents are asking 'em when they're gonna get a real job, meaning that 20 something, meanwhile, that 20 something general managers running a $5 million business,

Dan Ryan: Yeah, totally.

Yann de Rochefort: They, they own the p and l, they own, they own hr, they own every aspect of that business,

Dan Ryan: going back to how TV or media portrays restaurants, like I was watching The Bear and I really enjoyed the first two seasons, and then like, I couldn't watch it anymore. It stressed me the fuck out. Like, I, I would watch it at night and then I'd be like so anxious that I couldn't sleep. But it's not like that in real life.

Or it can, it can be like that in real life in some places.

Yann de Rochefort: are

Dan Ryan: Yeah.

Yann de Rochefort: but obviously, you know, it's, [00:59:00] it's, it's dramatized for effect,

Dan Ryan: Yeah. Well, it worked 'cause I lost a couple nights of sleep, so I just didn't sleep well watching it. Hmm. Um, Yann, this has been awesome. If I, if I were someone that wanted to get in touch with you or learn more about Boqueria or more importantly, um, a hotelier or a developer who wants to plug in or look at plugin in a boqueria into one of their lobbies, um, via a separate entrance,

Yann de Rochefort: answer a separate entrance.

Dan Ryan: entrance

Yann de Rochefort: budget, please.

Dan Ryan: Yes.

With the construction budget, uh, what's, what's the best way for them then to get in touch and learn more?

Yann de Rochefort: Yann@borenyc.com. YAN n@borenyc.com. Um, I can't claim to have an inbox zero, but I do answer my emails pretty quickly,

Dan Ryan: Great and

Yann de Rochefort: especially if you have a space for me.

Dan Ryan: awesome. And then I'll put in, uh, we'll put in the company website. I'll put a link to your, your, your book as well. Um,

Yann de Rochefort: Booker restaurant.com. And the book is, I believe, available on Amazon.

Dan Ryan: great. And I'll put a link in there. So everyone, um, [01:00:00] actually before we, before I give the real wrap of everything in that Boqueria cookbook. What's the most approachable recipe to be, to make at home for if you have guests over

tortilla?

Yann de Rochefort: Uh, yeah, is a good one. It's not, it's not easy.

Dan Ryan: Oh, see, I like an easy tortilla. You guy. Yeah. Yeah.

Yann de Rochefort: Yeah, it's not, it's not easy. Uh, but Tortilla

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

Yann de Rochefort: a good one.

Dan Ryan: I'm gonna make the tortilla. I, no, I'm gonna make the tortilla because that my uncle, my uncle was Spanish and he taught me how to make tortilla and paella, uh, as,

Yann de Rochefort: if,

Dan Ryan: a young age.

Yann de Rochefort: if all else fails, make Sangria.

Dan Ryan: And then it doesn't matter what you, what you feed them, if you serve them enough of that.

Yann de Rochefort: Yeah, everybody's happy.

Dan Ryan: Totally. Uh, Yann, seriously, this is long overdue thanks to Dave Trotts and making this inspiration happen, but it's so good to see you. Um, and thank you for sharing yourself and your time and your story.

Yann de Rochefort: Thank you. This was, this was really good fun.

Dan Ryan: yeah, it really was. And now I'm gonna reach out to Phyllis Deley, [01:01:00] because that was a crazy,

Yann de Rochefort: That is,

Dan Ryan: and it just happened yesterday. I was thinking about her too. Okay.

Yann de Rochefort: Green

Dan Ryan: And Mark Green, I gotta reach out to him as well. Oh my God. Uh, and thank you to all of our listeners. Without you, we wouldn't be here talking to cool people like Yann and hearing about their experience.

And if this has changed your idea about hospitality or restaurants, or if you want to put a boqueria into your, uh, hotel, pass it on, or, you know, someone that wants to pass it on, don't forget to like, and subscribe And, uh, we'll catch you next time.