Defining Hospitality

DH - James Lee
===

James Lee: [00:00:00] time to time we may look up to the building and say, oh, okay.

Do you recognize that building? Um. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. Uh, whether if it's, uh, you know, historical or it is very well known or, or, or what have you, we just, you know, a lot of times we don't look at it as much, if you will. However, We remember the moments, we remember the occasions we remember where we were

Intro: What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan, and this is Defining Hospitality.

Sponsor: This podcast is sponsored by Berman Fall Hospitality Group, a design-driven furniture manufacturer who specializes in custom case goods and [00:01:00] seating for hotel guest rooms.

Dan Ryan: Today's guest is a distinguished interior designer and architect, a creative innovator and a hospitality leader. He has over 20 years of experience. He's led luxury projects on five continents and was recognized with Boutique Designs Boutique 18 Award. He and his holistic. Culturally informed approach to design have been featured in hospitality design and boutique design magazines, just to name a few.

He's worked at top hospitality design firms for prestigious clients such as Four Seasons, Ritz-Carlton and Marriott International. He's the hospitality managing director and design principal at ia. Interior Architects. Ladies and gentlemen, James Lee. Welcome James.

James Lee: hello. hello. How are you, Dan?

Dan Ryan: I'm so good. I, um, I'm so glad that you've joined here because I remember living in Los Angeles many, many moons ago.

I think I moved to New York City in 2005, and I remember driving downtown to [00:02:00] where I used to deliver food in college via fax machine, if anyone knows what it remembers, what a fax machine is. But driving downtown, um, and calling on IA meant that must have been 20, oh my god, 20 years ago. That's crazy. Um, and I know that IA historically has been known for a lot of workspace and commercial, um, and they have done hospitality over the years as well.

But I find what I'm, what I really am excited to talk to you about is how so many of these larger architecture firms,

James Lee: right.

Dan Ryan: IA included, have put special consideration and. Almost this like built, spun out these self-sustaining hospitality interior design practices within them. Um, so I want to understand from your perspective, like why that trend seems to be happening and what IA is thinking in doing that.

Number one. Um, number two, we'll just see [00:03:00] kind of where all, where that conversation goes. 'cause I think it's just a very interesting trend I'm noticing of people or firms really. Putting special consideration on not only just interior design, but hospitality, interior design in particular. So,

James Lee: right.

Dan Ryan: but before we get into that, like I ask every guest, James, what does hospitality mean to you?

James Lee: Oh, oh my God. Um, well, you know, honestly, hospitality is just everyday living. You know, this is, uh, you know, how we work creative and you know, how we're I. And, and again, like I said, how we live and that's just what defines what hospitality is. You know, today, my humble opinion and, you know, it's, uh.

We're, we are who we are and we are, um, always, you know, bonded together. And I think we learned that lesson during COVID, obviously. And, uh, yeah, and as the, as designers, what we, what we're doing, what we do and what we're doing right now is, it's quite simple to be frankly honest with you because again, we're just complimenting what Mother of [00:04:00] nature has done, you know, for us, and that we're just enhancing that experience, if you will.

So yeah, I think that's, that's what really defines what hospitality is today. And, um. Always sell for better,

Dan Ryan: So a, as you're saying that I'm getting the feeling and I'm using the word feeling, but it's really just not for you anyway. And having known you for years and years, it's not just about the spaces that you're designing and the built environment, but it's really about creating these, I don't know, I call them collision spots, but these areas where.

People's feelings. People's feelings can be intermixed and they can have, they can connect with each other on a personal level. They can be inspired by the space around them. Um, but it's really about the feelings and the people throughout the space. Whereas I find that most, and that's, I think to be said for me, most interior designers.

Whereas I think as architects, architects are kind of more thinking about this. The structure and the function, I guess. Of [00:05:00] course there's, there's design and I, of course there's design, but of course there's considering how the people are moving through it and, and interacting with each other. But I feel like interiors definitely puts way more focus on that ladder part.

James Lee: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I absolutely, I I think it kind of goes back to one of the questions that you asked me before is about the whole trend of, you know, architecture and any interiors or what have you. And I, I honestly, I think the architecture, interior design should be blurred, uh, in certain way when it comes to hospitalities because, uh, I think that the demand of the owners and operators, um, you know, request of, you know, architecture, interior merging together is. It's getting high. And uh, and again, I'm, I'm one of the firm believers of that, right? So that's, uh,

Hmm.

see the

building I walk in, I want to make sure that that whole experience is simultaneous or, or what or what have you. And that's the reason why IA Hospitality was born. And, um, you know, going back [00:06:00] to again, your, your points on what architects do and interior designers do, Again, we come from, we uh, we come from an, um, background of, you know, telling the story, right? And I think that the narrative and the importance of stories, stories is always, is been there. And, uh, again, it's getting, it's getting more important now, right? So, um, we wanna make sure that, that the story is not just the interior design, but architecture as well too.

So when we are preparing a, um, the package for a concept or a schematic or whatever, whatever that may be, and I always tell my designers, including myself, is that. Let's not try to hit the brain, but let's try to hit the heart, let the story really relate to what we wanna say, um, not just literally, but emotionally as well too, so that people can relate to it and be able to appreciate, you know, what we do as architects and interior designers to create that holistic, uh, you know, space as one.

Dan Ryan: as you were just [00:07:00] talking and as I was thinking about feelings, I was looking at the notes from our earlier conversation and what I was trying, what I fumbled. Trying to say. Earlier you said way more elegantly, elegantly. When we first spoke, and I should have just read this right from the beginning, but when we first spoke, you said speaking to the corn shell of the, of the building, like the architecture itself.

You said people don't always remember the architecture, but they always remember the interiors.

And why do you think interior design carries that emotional imprint?

James Lee: You know, I wanna be, I wanna be quite, be careful on this, you know, statement. 'cause I don't wanna offend any of the a greatest architects that are out there, including some of my industry friends. But Let's just talk about a, just human natures. Uh, you and me. Um, Dan and James decided to just go out somewhere in the New York City or, or what have you. We, we under, we know the locations, we know where it is, you know, we know what area it is or what have you. But [00:08:00] there are time to time we may look up to the building and say, oh, okay.

Do you recognize that building? Um. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't. Uh, whether if it's, uh, you know, historical or it is very well known or, or, or what have you, we just, you know, a lot of times we don't look at it as much, if you will. However, We remember the moments, we remember the occasions we remember where we were or what have you.

And it is a similar thing for your loved ones. And I, I don't wanna talk about our 20 years or 30 years or what have you, but you would always remember that the space that we went to with your special ones or the loved ones or whatever, and it could be just very, very just dark space with maybe its beautiful candle lights.

And we will always remember that really moment if you will. the reason why I got drawn into this interior design is look, nothing has to be a fancy, not, not every wall needs to be featured walls or anything like that, but as long as [00:09:00] we can kind of, you know, evoke that, create that uh, space where people can appreciate and. like I said earlier, complementing the environment that we, that you currently have or whatever, whatever that may be. I think it is something that, uh, people will remember, uh, to create that e emotional, effect, if you will, so that, uh, so people can remember forever.

Dan Ryan: Yeah. And like you, I don't, I'm not, I'm not trying to create, um, conflict between interior designers and architects because, but I do think that they both bring attention to. Well attention, but what I meant is a tension of how to address and create a space. And I find that on the interior side, it's you're really trying to focus on that candlelit feeling, right?

Um, yeah. And trying to create these places where whatever that interaction is intended to be in that space. I feel like interior designers [00:10:00] have a much greater superpower at. Defining those nuances and getting it into the product that's in there that facilitates these meetings.

James Lee: Oh, absolutely. I think, uh, we, we look at details, uh, a lot. Uh, as you know, Dan, uh, you know, you, you and I have worked for many years now together. Um, again, wherever you're, you.

Dan Ryan: I.

James Lee: Body, uh, body parts may touch or feel, or, or what have you smell or even whatever, you know, we wanna make sure that all that, uh, you know, experiences are, you know, thought through so that, uh, we are able to create a space and design a space where, um, you know, guests can appreciate or, or whatnot.

So I think those are some of the elements that we really, really definitely, and, you know, taking into considerations when we are drawing a line right. You know, rather than drawing a straight line from A to B, we want to make sure that it's doodly doodly if you will, so that uh, whatever [00:11:00] your feelings or whatever your, um, motions may, uh, take you from here to there or here to there, uh, is some is is within your control.

Dan Ryan: Mm-hmm.

James Lee: then

it is something that we always want to really, you know, consider as we are, um, designing a space.

Dan Ryan: Agreed. Now, when I first, when I read your intro, you've had, you've worked on a ton of international projects throughout your career. Um. Places that I assume are very unfamiliar to you. Right. So as a designer living in California or working on projects in California, you know, and you're asked to design a project in Seoul or Savannah or Saskatchewan, how do you approach design and that idea of storytelling that you, you talked about before in places that you're unfamiliar with.

James Lee: I think, uh, it depends. Um, again, I think, uh, it really depends on the locations and, uh, [00:12:00] proximity, uh, to the, uh, the project side, if you will. Um, there are days when, uh, we're really looking at, you know, the books and the magazines and. and or whatever, uh, tool may be. But I think, you know, today, um, with the, uh, the support of all this, uh, you know, social media or what, or what have you, we're really able to, you know, dive right into the, the, the locals of, uh, what, where the product site is. So for example, um,

we're currently designing a, uh, a project in Inline Village right now. Uh, some of our designers really haven't been there. So again, just, just to get, to give you an example, um, again, the power of, uh, your, your social media, right? Whether if it's Instagram, TikTok, or Facebook or what have you. So rather than again, going through a usual right, where, where, you know, you just type in Google search and you'll probably get the information that everybody knows.

So instead of that, we type in. Hashtag incline Village and we're [00:13:00] able to go into the, the, the waves of all different kinds of stuff that is going on. So again, then at that point, we're able to really understand what people are celebrating, if you will. Um, some of the locals, some of the guests or the visitor tourists, or what whatnot mean.

We're able to find out where the, where the Instagram moments are. Some of the speakeasy places. What they, what their usual hangouts are during the weekends or, or whatnot. So that we're really be, we we're able to really engage the, uh, the local community. So from there onwards, we're able to find out what the city is all about.

And then that, and at that point, we're able to use that so that we can create a, you know, the narrative and the story that really relates to the, uh, the, the local site. And, uh, I, a lot of my colleagues have used this word, you know, you know, sense of place, right? So we're able to really celebrate that very specific city to be able to connect to the brands of hotel that we're designing.

Dan Ryan: Hmm.

James Lee: Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: and then [00:14:00] IA is really known, like I said earlier, globally for workplace and corporate interiors.

Um, now that you have IA hospitality, what should all the hospitality folks out there are considering. Bringing on a designer for a project? Like what, what should they know about, um, IA hospitality?

James Lee: I think, uh, there, there are quite a few things. Um, I think, um, you know, one of the things that really stand out is that we do have a, our own internal, um, a lot of different department from a lighting to art, to, um, obviously architect being architects and, and you know, we're able to go ahead and, uh.

Provide a, you know, architecture of record services so that whatever that drawings that we do from an interior design standpoint, we're able to stamp our own drawings. So, so that all that, the, the headache of owners, uh, you know, hiring different consultants for, you know, different, uh, specialties and professional services, we're able to provide all that so that again, when we are designing, um, we're [00:15:00] constantly, uh, working with our.

Internal, uh, designers and consultants, if you will, to be able to come up with a, uh, a, a full drawing set as well as anything and then everything so that, uh, they're able to go ahead and saves a lot of time, money, and an effort. 'cause as you and I both know, time's money, right? So again, having that whole cohesive, uh, the drawings of, uh,

all different.

Sectors are very, very important. And it's, it's just getting more important every day.

Dan Ryan: Hmm. And then as far, so an all encompassing practice and having the larger infrastructure is really cool. But then as far as you as the leader of this IA hospitality, where do you want to take it? What's your vision?

James Lee: We wanna be recognized for, you know, one of the top hospital, uh, hospitality firms, quite frankly. And then I think, uh, we, uh, have a, uh. Most interest, um, you know, providing the, the, the very best design. Um, you know, [00:16:00] we, um, obviously did IA hospitality was born, you know, a few years ago. And then by me joining late last year, I think, um, you know, or you know, thanks to our, our.

Clients and operators or what have you, you're trusted partners who is, who have given us a lot of, you know, opportunity to design all these fantastic projects all around the world. Um, you know, we can't be, you know, thankful enough. Um, so again, right now what our focus is just to create that, uh, portfolio, uh, we want to make sure that whatever the projects that we have, nothing's too small, nothing's too big, but we just wanna make sure that we provide great services and most importantly, the great design.

So.

Dan Ryan: And then, um, I'd be remiss not to bring up the way that you're. Pushing the envelope with just kind of innovation, if

James Lee: Right,

Dan Ryan: And I know, uh, I, me Mce, I'm looking forward to MCing the radical innovation event,

uh, in New York

James Lee: right.

Dan Ryan: coming up. But [00:17:00] you guys put forth a really cool project, and

I think they just published in the other

James Lee: Right.

Dan Ryan: Walk us through, um, your vision of it and how you can use.

Kind of venues like this to, to push your thinking and how you guys are executing design and envisioning spaces and creating spaces where people can come together.

James Lee: Right. Um, great events, first of all, I think, and, and, uh, competitions, if you will. And, uh, we're very humble that, uh, we became a finalist, uh, uh, for this radical call innovations. Um, you know, when we were, um, asked to participate at this event, um, we, to be frankly honest with you, we had no idea, but we are excited at the fact that, um, we're able to utilize this, you know, sustainability and.

Giving back, if you will, giving back to the community. Um, those are the two motos that, that we really, you know, had in [00:18:00] mind. Um, as we came up with the, uh, uh, this project called The Passage, um, what it is is essentially, you know, utilizing some of the abandoned, uh, the railway that you. That we have here in Americas or any part of the world, and be able to, uh, salvage it as a, uh, destination, as a, as a hotel, if you will.

Right. And obviously, you know, there has to be some of the reinforcement from a structure standpoint to really make it into a, you know, proper hotel or what have you. But a again, I think, um, I, I use. Phrase quite a lot and you, we say, you know, look, look past to the look forward. Right? So again, understanding and then appreciating some of those, um, great engineering structure and architecture, uh, to, um, you know, make it into a, uh, modern, uh, day of, uh, hotel.

We thought it was really, really, uh, cool and interesting. And obviously, um, you know. Some of the, the, the features, uh, you will have, you know, the solar panels [00:19:00] and, you know, re recycling the, the rain water to, you know. It becomes drinkable and you can use it for any of the, you know, operation needs or what have you.

And, and, and again, really reactivating some of the, the, uh, landscape as well as the local community to really revive the, uh, the, the energy of the town, uh, uh, if you will. So. Yeah, no, that was, uh, that, that was very interesting. And then obviously we had a lot of, uh, you know, designers and, uh, like I said, trusted partners and the friends who got involved in these projects to really, uh, make it real, if you will.

Um, and, uh, yeah, it was a hell out of an experience for us and we're very, very excited to, um, you know, showcase and present, uh, to the world. So don't forget to vote.

Dan Ryan: Yeah. Uh, yeah. And we'll put a link up there in, in, um, in the, in the notes so everyone can check it out. Um, I have this feeling and I think it, it's also true everyone in any organization, I [00:20:00] think is so busy just getting the work done. It takes your full day and then you have your, your time to recharge and then you go back at it the next day.

But I think that everyone, when it comes to innovation within the course of, even though I know none of us work 40 hour weeks, but like if you were to say in a, an average 40 hour week, um, 5% of it. I think, so that would be two hours a week

James Lee: Right.

Dan Ryan: Can be used to innovate and think about things to work on the business or

push, hone your skills and design or processes or not getting, not doing your day-to-day, but kind of getting above and working on what you're doing to continually

James Lee: Right.

Dan Ryan: And I'm always amazed and I, I really appreciate. How so many of the firms and past guests that I've spoken to enter

James Lee: Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: to help not [00:21:00] only sharpen their saw, but also

gain insights and give the teams a new challenge. And it's, it's that, I think it comes out of that 5% innovation budget. You know, you said time is the most valuable thing. Um, or time is money, but I think time is the most valuable asset. Any and all of us have. And to be able to dedicate a certain amount of time in your vocation to push the envelope is, I don't know. I just think it's really important for all of us, but it's also a big ask of companies.

It's like, it's almost as if it's a pro bono kind of project. You're not getting paid for it. So how do you at IA look at it and think about this investment in time? And why should others, if they're not doing it, consider entering as many of these types of design competitions as possible?

James Lee: You know, I think there, there, there are two sides to this. Uh, I think, uh, you know, there's, uh. Well, let's, let's focus on our internal first. You know, our families and friends who, you know, work in the same [00:22:00] farm or what have you. That's really is a great opportunity for us to, you know, um, bring us together.

Um, I think, uh, We're all creative people. Um, and, uh, we wanna make sure that, okay, when this all these creative brains are put together, what kind of stuff can they come out with? Right? So, um, you know, I, I think it was a really great experience. Uh. While coming up with this presentation, we really, you know, thought it through.

And then, you know, obviously a lot of people, a lot of different people have different voices as you and I both know. And, uh, but, you know, best ideas win at the end of the day. And, uh, it was a lot of fun. Lots, lots of wine, lots of, uh, sketchings or or what have you. And, uh, we just had a lot of fun with it.

And then, you know, just the whole chemistry and the bonding gets, you know, gets greater and greater or whatnot. So from a, you know, company perspective, it, it, it's a. We don't see it as an investment. We, we see it as more of uh, Exercise is a, is a team building, uh, if you will, right? It's just, uh, [00:23:00] chemistry is everything when it comes to a teamwork.

You and I both know that. So, um, again, it just really brought us together to understand, um, you know, how we process things and how we, how we think, and how we go about it. So that, uh, we're able to really use that, um, skillset for, um, you know, our actual projects. Um, and at at the same time, you know, externally, we, we wanted to give it back.

We really wanted to give it back to, um, to the community where, okay, utilizing our hospitality talents. What do we do, uh, to, um, give back to some of the community that hasn't been really getting, getting the highlights, if you will. Right. So, and that's the reason why we really looked at some of this, uh, distressed and abandoned, uh, the bridges, um, so that we can really use this concept to really reactivate the whole, um, the community.

And for, for us it's very important. Of course, you know, some of the, um. The, the new shiny buildings in, um, some of the CBD areas [00:24:00] in metropolitan cities is nice and fancy and sexy. Yes, absolutely. But, uh, we, we want to understand, we really wanted to look back some of those bridges. Why were they, why were they there?

Why were they built and how were they used and why are they not being used now? So again, like I said, looking back to look forward, we really wanted to give it back some of those, um. The, the, the structure that were built once was used for a lot of different purposes,

Speaker 2: Hey, everybody. We've been doing this podcast for over three years now, and one of the themes that consistently comes up is sustainability, and I'm just really proud to announce that our sponsor, Berman Fall Hospitality Group is the first within our hospitality industry to switch to sustainable and recyclable packaging, eliminating the use of styrofoam.

Please check out their impact page in the show notes for more info.

Dan Ryan: And then if, if you think,

and then I'm also curious 'cause you're a global company, uh, [00:25:00] when you decided to take on this project for radical innovation, how do you. Get the people. Is it all from one office? Is it from multiple offices? Um, is there multiple levels of seniority involved? H how do you, how do you A, decide, B, assemble the team and C, when it's all done? What's some of the coolest feedback you get from your team as a leader?

James Lee: Uh, well, I, I put on this, uh. Design principle head for no reason, quite frankly, because, you know, I'm nothing but just a, a designer, just like any one of us in our, in our firms. And obviously there, there are some folks that are very strong in concepts. There are folks that are somewhat very strong in, in the back end, if you will, right.

Um, from a, you know, technical standpoint. So we really pulled the, all the brains together who really wanted to work on these projects and make, you know, changes. So, um. [00:26:00] You some of the, the concept and the renderings and were done out of, uh, Los Angeles and we also have, you know, technical directors and then actual architects who stamp the drawings, right.

Um, from anywhere and everywhere in, you know, some, some of them are from East Coast, some of them are from Seattle or what have you. To not only come up with a concept that looks cool, but okay. If we were to make into a reality, how do we do it? Where do we go to get permits and what kind of stuff that we need?

So it was, you know, collaborations with, uh, with everybody who were passionate about these projects, were passionate about, you know, giving back to the community and

people wanted to have a hell, a lot of fun.

Dan Ryan: Yeah, it's, uh, it's also pretty cool to design these spa, uh, uh, having been to many of these competitions and being involved in radical innovation, it's also freeing for the teams that are working on it. To not be encumbered by permits [00:27:00] and sometimes gravity or, and it's, it's really a, a white, a clean slate that you can really push the envelope.

And

what's super interesting is when you, when you're working unencumbered, I know I feel like constraints are always good challenges to work around, but you do have that level of, of freedom. Um, you can take a lot of liberties and what's interesting is many times projects turn into

James Lee: Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: So you do, you develop it in this white space or blue sky environment, and then sometimes they

actually get built. I'm, I, I actually interviewed a past winner, um, I'm waiting to release that until they make a big announcement soon, but they, they're actually building they

James Lee: That's awesome.

Dan Ryan: In radical innovation and I, not just radical innovation,

James Lee: Right.

Dan Ryan: So I, I would just love

if anyone listening to this, you're a junior designer, senior

designer, or principal, [00:28:00] pay attention to these competitions because they're a really fun, like you said, James, a really fun team building exercise for everyone to get invol to get involved

James Lee: Hundred percent.

Dan Ryan: Helps just kind of hone your craft a bit

James Lee: No, absolutely no. We, we had a lot of fun. And, and, and again, you know, uh, as we're designing some of this, you know, uh, spaces or whatnot, and one of my, uh, technical director like, uh, uh, James, come back to the earth. This is, this is not. You can't build this. Right. So again, so there's a lot of, uh, you know, different components, technical technicality, you know, the winning, uh, to it obviously.

And there's always room for improvement, right. But, uh, um, yeah, it was, it was, it was a lot of fun then.

Dan Ryan: Um, okay, so that's in the land of make believe competition, which could turn real, and I think it's really important. Um, you've worked all over the world with major established brands and all different kinds of

James Lee: Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: What do you wish more clients [00:29:00] knew starting

a project?

James Lee: Budget. to answer. I, did it

Dan Ryan: so that's super

interesting. 'cause I I look at real estate

performance all the time,

James Lee: Uhhuh.

Dan Ryan: And the budgets are there, f, f and E as it relates to,

which I think is the most important part

of

James Lee: Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: It's always the last line item.

James Lee: Right.

Dan Ryan: Right. And it's a, usually it's a percentage of. The overall development budget that they got from some other formula

somewhere that they copied and pasted into an Excel spreadsheet. And I agree. I think that that number, that's the bottom of the develop of the of,

James Lee: Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: Column is often, as we said earlier, the most important. So what do you think you could. What

can we all do as we consider that last line item that is so important, but to make it more concrete and distributed across all areas of a project so people know what they're supposed to

be doing.

James Lee: I think first and foremost, [00:30:00] I, I think our, our clients or whoever's who, whoever is in charge of, you know, Excel spreadsheets really needs to understand, you know, what, what we do as a, um, designers and architects and consultants or what have you. Because those are the things those, ff e are the ones that you know, are guest touch and feel, right.

So, you know, when we're designing this. Es whether if it's just the mini bars, chairs, or what, whatever that may be, we really, really look at 'em carefully because we want to make it such that, you know, guests will almost wanna steal them or they might like, okay, I really, really want that for my house.

Right? And those are the ones that really get photographed or, or, or whatnot. So I think there has to be a, a, a fine balance of, uh. I find balance that the importance of this f, f, and E and have this educated to whoever's coming up with this, you know, the budget and spreadsheets, so that, that really gets built into a, um, master sheet at the very, very beginning.[00:31:00]

And that will really help us, uh, as a designers to, um, design really, because we don't necessarily want to redesign or ve or whatever that may be.

Dan Ryan: No. 'cause that eats

James Lee: Yeah, absolutely.

Dan Ryan: which is your

James Lee: Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: And it's also just you, we could all be doing different things,

James Lee: Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: Taking on an interesting, uh, comp competition, working on the business, refining the business, making

everything better, then having to change stuff that we already did.

If we, it's like almost like the goalpost move, and I'm not gonna say all clients. But I think the 80 20 rule applies here. I think many owners and developers, I would say 20% of them probably have a pretty dialed in budget as far as where it wants to be allocated across a

James Lee: Right.

Dan Ryan: But I'd say the vast majority of them don't.

And then we can all figure it out collaboratively. But I wish that that

figuring out was done sooner in the

James Lee: I [00:32:00] agree.

Dan Ryan: Because then you can build your buckets of areas and then that gives you the constraint and me the constraint

James Lee: Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: of. What's most important and how do we achieve vision?

James Lee: Yeah, absolutely.

Dan Ryan: How do we do that?

James Lee: Like, get them sit down and they look, we build it together. I don't know, I, but I think this is a big question that the owners and the clients really need to ask themselves and really understanding the brands too, because you and I both know the touch points for each brand.

I don't even know how many brands there are now, but they have, you know, different touch points and, uh. It's, it's very, very important because, uh, we want to design to the brand we want, right? And we want to design to that, uh, specific genre and whatever that may be. And, uh, if owner has a different vision, then, then we gotta go back and then have the conversations with, with the brand too.

Because again, uh, a lot of times, not every time we were given a budget, to be frankly honest with you, so that we may. Over [00:33:00] design or under design. So then, uh, when our design gets evaluated during concept or schematic, uh, you know, this conversation comes up. They're like, okay, that's fine. That looks good.

And then we move on to dd and it's like, wait, we, they raise a flex like Uhuh. This is well over the budget and we're going back to schematic or the concept. So this whole cycle of, uh. Redesigning or the VA is not doing anyone good, quite frankly. 'cause you'll one, delay the projects. Two, um, will, uh, you'll have to, you know, redesign.

It's just, it's just whole dominant

Dan Ryan: I understand why sometimes they don't want to give a budget because they wanna see what the

James Lee: creativity.

Dan Ryan: vision to the nth degree is, Right. right?

But then oftentimes, once you see the dream and then.

Then reality sets in and you're like,

Ugh, okay, IW. But I think that if you, if you had the constraint going in, I think that the overall end result would be much better because [00:34:00] you guys are so good at what you do,

James Lee: Yeah, no, absolutely.

Dan Ryan: and you can work within that constraint the beginning proactively rather than have it be an afterthought.

James Lee: exactly. And, and you just nailed it. That's, that's what we experience a lot, to be frankly, honest with you. So, like, designers, we hired you. Good dream, show me what you've got. Here you go. No, can't afford it. Go back, do it again. So it's, it's that whole cycle, and I'm sure all the designers are listening to this right now.

Can you know, relate to me a hundred percent.

Dan Ryan: Yeah, where you're triggering them with PTSD. Um, but if you were to look back over current career over the past year, and even in your past, if you think about. Being able to communicate upward effectively to your clients, um, and kind of manage that, those expectations and create this, um, I don't know, more collaborative process right from the beginning. Are there any examples you [00:35:00] could share of where, like a great example of how you've had that experience and, and how you could proactively. Onboard a client even. I know they're the client, so they want things their way, but there is a way to onboard them properly so that everyone's expectations are met and that excellence can be

achieved.

James Lee: Yeah, no, there we now have changed some of our deliverables on all our projects. Um, you know, because of that reason. And, you know, what we do now is again, understand, you know, having the clients understand what the brand is, that that's very important. And then, um. That's done through the support of the, the brands too, right?

Uh, whether if it's just, uh, you know, quick immersions or, or, or what have you. Um, so they do that and as we are moving into a concept in schematic, showing pretty picture of, you know, space planning, et cetera, you know, clients get excited, which is great. Now what we do, um, is we engage our. Trusted, um, partners such as, you know, [00:36:00] case Good Company, ff e Company is very early.

And, um, by providing them without the plans and some of the high level selected the furniture, or ff e or sometimes millwork, they're able to go ahead and provide us with some of the, um, guesstimated budget, right? Um, whether, if it's just the model room or the productions or what have you, we, we would have those two numbers, at least from a, you know, customer standpoint.

And we present that during our concept and schematic. Some of you might say, oh, like, how do you know? How do you know how many quantities you have? But again, and I think just kind of, uh, you know, educating our clients from a budget standpoint. Okay, well here's a plan. These are some of the look and field that you're gonna get.

And it costs around range of. X dollars or Y dollar. Then it gets, you really enter into systems like Aha, okay. These designers are really thinking through the budget and we like it. Okay, perfect. Then let's proceed. Or, or they might think, [00:37:00] um, it's way over the budget at that point. We still have a room to really reselect some of the, you know, furniture and ff Andes so that we can design to the budgets, right.

So, um, that's been very, very helpful and effective and a lot of clients actually appreciate it and that also, you know, inform our operators as well too. 'cause, um. There are times, uh, where, um, they may want more or less or whatnot, but having that budget in, in our mind with the help of our trusted partners like yourself, we're able to, uh, provide information at the very get go.

So there are no surprises as we move on to different phases. Sure.

Dan Ryan: can also share as far as an onboarding goes. When I first hear about a project, I can ask what the room budget is, and for me, that. Before anything is even done is so helpful because I just know from a case good and seating perspective. With

James Lee: Right.

Dan Ryan: typically if you're doing case goods and seating [00:38:00] in a room, a rule of thumb is it's 35 to

45% of the room budget, right.

James Lee: Yeah. That's a fair.

Dan Ryan: the ff and e. And then

James Lee: Mm-hmm.

Dan Ryan: it, I'm just for round numbers, if it's $10,000 per

room, um, I just know it's.

We're working with between 35 and

$4,500 per room. And then when I see the elevations and the plans and some of the material selections, I can immediately

be like, this is gonna be an issue. and, being able to share that with me

sooner, say, I can ask you what's most

important. And then when, when I hear

what's most important to you and your vision, then I can say, okay, well

why are you, why are we using that stone here where you're not even gonna see it? Or maybe we can, if the, the real impact is this area of the room, maybe we can kind of focus on that and then de, not eliminate, but

dilute

James Lee: Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Dan Ryan: that's not.

But every room, every space, every designer.[00:39:00]

Uh, they know what's different, but by me or they know what's most important. But by me also knowing at a very early stage, I can help guide in a collaborative way so that that result gets achieved. And I find that oftentimes it's the people are just so cagey about those numbers, and to me, just helps me help you get your job better and excellent, and, and deliver

excellence.

James Lee: Yeah. Um, but again, like I said, you know, sometimes we're not given a budget at the very beginning from the client, so we really would really wouldn't know. In a scenario like that, we have to go by some of the historical data and the numbers that we use for whether if it was a, you know, three star, four star, five star, is it, was it a lifestyle hotel?

Was it a luxury hotel? So, you know, having those data is obvi, obviously very good. And you know, again, with the support of some of the, uh. Procurement companies, uh, were able to, you know, get some of the data and be able to, uh, you know, come up with [00:40:00] our very preliminary budget and, you know, designed to suit.

So, um, again, uh, you know, a company like yours right, um, has been always, you know, helpful and we rely on you guys a lot and obviously this has been very, very helpful for our success.

Dan Ryan: Hmm. Cool. Well, let's just do more of that.

Okay.

James Lee: Yeah, absolutely.

Dan Ryan: Communicating upward,

giving Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

so much. Um, so, so since you've

joined IA and you're building out this hospitality. Uh, practice within it. You've worked on some pretty cool projects internationally and you have a pretty good international team from which I've heard anecdotally. Um, tell us about the, the global footprint.

James Lee: Um, right now, um, we have, uh, 18 offices here in Americas. We have one office in, uh, London, right. Um, our hospitality, uh. Are done through our [00:41:00] London office and LA that's where I live. Um, but again, it's, I don't necessarily have a home office, so it just, I happen to live in Los Angeles, so, um. I, I travel very often.

Um, as you know, I, I'm in San Francisco every Tuesdays or whatnot, and I come to here New York, uh, you know, once a month or, or what have you. So, um, again, I'm responsible for all the Americas, uh, including Canada and LA Tom or what have you, as well as the apac. And my counterpart, uh, Veronica, she assistant London office, and she's in charge of, uh, EMEA.

So, uh, again, the Europe, middle East or, or what have you. But, uh, you know, we, we'd love to collaborate. Uh, should there be any projects where, uh, our resources and our designers are suitable for a project, wherever that may be. We'd love to collaborate. So, um, those are our business model that we're currently having right now.

Dan Ryan: Cool. Um, you're sitting where you're sitting and working on the competitions, on the actual projects,

building a Yeah. Yeah.

[00:42:00] nurturing a team, what's exciting you most as you look to the future?

James Lee: I like working with a, uh, younger designers, if I can say that on this podcast. uh, in a sense that, uh, lot of, uh, designers who comes from wherever that may be, you know, graduate from the college, come up with this big ideas and great ideas and this energy, uh, this youth that, that I don't have.

So being able to really, you know, mentor them, being able to, um, guide them to wherever it needs to be. Um. Right. And really teaching them why we do certain things in certain ways is very, very important. And at the same time, we'd love to, I, I personally embrace, um, some of their ideas. I think they're very creative.

It just needs to be, um, massaged and chiseled in such a way that it, it works. And, uh, that's again, one of the, uh, that's how we came up with, um, the radical innovation. The passage, uh, the idea as, as well too. [00:43:00] So a again, um, being able to really emerge and blur this, uh, uh, whole, um, demographic of, uh, you know, experienced designers and, um, the new designers, if you will, we come up with some fantastic synergy to offer something that's something new and something that works and something that people are thriving for.

Dan Ryan: Awesome. Um, well, I've really enjoyed our conversation here, James. If people wanted to learn more about you or IA, hospitality or IA in general. Um, really proud of myself for not saying AI through this whole

conversation, You are not alone.

Because AI is

everywhere Oh, absolutely.

So it's refreshing to put the I in front of the A.

But if people wanted to learn more about you or

the company, what's a great way for them to get in touch?

James Lee: Uh, send me an email. Um, go, go ahead and, uh, check out our website. Uh, we have our, uh, you know, Instagram accounts, face, Facebook [00:44:00] account. God, I, I, I love to talk on the phone. I'm not a text, I'm not a big texter. I think a lot of people know that. Um, so, yeah, no, feel free to reach out to us at.

Anytime, uh, we would love to be your friend.

Dan Ryan: Well, I appreciate having you on and giving us more color around larger architecture firms that are treating design and interiors specially, and giving it the attention that it deserves. I think it's a win-win for everyone and. it's just an exciting thing to see. So thank you for sharing your side of it.

I really, really appreciate it. And so do all of our

listeners

James Lee: you, Dan. Appreciate it.

Dan Ryan: and to all of our listeners, if this has changed the way that you think about to innovate or how to

um, give interiors and hospitality design the focus that it deserves or how to onboard clients a little bit better, pass it along to someone else who might learn because. [00:45:00] This is all about making us all better. So thank you all for listening and tuning in. Appreciate it and we'll catch you next time.